Many people get confused about the traffic priorities at mini roundabouts

22/1/2019

I'm hoping this is a correct route to suggest a change to clarify the HWC.

It seems to me that many people get confused about the traffic priorities at mini roundabouts. Whilst Rule 185 is fine for larger roundabouts (which is what I think it originally and solely applied to) the Rule states that a driver should " give priority to traffic approaching from your right,......" I believe this statement to be too simplistic for mini roundabouts as drivers are interpreting that traffic joining from the left must give way to traffic that has yet to reach the roundabout.

Dangerously, drivers approaching a mini roundabout and intending to drive straight across, seem to think that, even before they have got to the roundabout, they have some sort of standing priority over vehicles joining from the left, who's wheels have already crossed the give way lines. Also, interpreting the rule literally, two cars approaching a mini roundabout head to head and one car needs to turn right, the rule can (and has been) interpreted that it must give way to the other approaching car, which is also on the right; collisions a commonplace because of this misconception.

My understanding is that once a vehicle's front wheels have crossed the give way lines, that vehicle is technically on the roundabout and has established its priority; others vehicles yet to reach the roundabout must then give way. For example, a mini roundabout that was once a T junction: a vehicle enters the roundabout from the side road but there is another vehicle bearing down from the right but, at this moment in time, has not yet reached the roundabout. Rule 185 can be interpreted that the car bearing down and on the right, that has yet to reach the roundabout, has the right of way, even though it hasn't crossed the give way lines. This would make a nonsense of the concept of the mini roundabout which is to slow down traffic and enable priorities to change according to the position of the vehicles.

I believe that Rule 185 should be amended to clarify that the priorities shall only apply to vehicles that have crossed the give way lines and are now, technically, on the roundabout; if you have not yet reached the roundabout you have not yet established your priority.

Robin

56 Comments

Anne Haymes

14/3/2020 15:04:07

I had an altercation with a bus driver on exactly this issue only yesterday. I was turning left and then right (effectively going straight on) at a junction with 2 mini roundabouts. I had entered the first roundabout but was then caught in a queue to turn right at the second. While I was stationary on the roundabout, a bus entered the roundabout from my right. When the traffic moved forward ahead of me, I followed, but at the same time, the bus attempted to push through in front of me from my right. Given the heated exchange that followed, it was quite clear that we both believed we had right of way: he because he was on my right, and I because I was on the roundabout before him. Who is correct?

Phil Hynes

11/8/2020 11:45:16

I believe Anne is correct and agree that an amendment to clarify the rules would be helpful, together with more publicity.

Chris Johnson

29/3/2021 23:29:17

I unxerstood if two vehicles were Approching the roundabout at the same time, the vehicle approching double dotted lines had priority, not the boy racer driving fast to go over the roundabout to get ahead, from a side road???

Adrian Chapmanlaw

8/9/2020 08:19:30

if you treat roundabouts like this then its dangerous.

its safer (no matter the letter of the law) that if you have a car approaching from the right to give way to it.

having one rule for one type of roundabout and another for another type of roundabout is insane.

always give way to the right

1/12/2020 17:20:04

Sorry Adrian, are you suggesting that traffic stationary on a roundabout should give way to any incoming traffic that can see a way through? I would have thought that was considerably more dangerous. I believe that once you are on the roundabout, as I said I was, then traffic from the right should give way to you, not vice versa.

Clive Horner link

6/11/2021 08:57:34

I had same thing I was on my first across the give way line on my bicycle car coming from dead ahead not crossed line cut across the round a bout driving over not round it to do so and blasted his horn

Rob

11/2/2022 14:16:37

There is no way you should be stationary on a roundabout in the first place... The rule is quite clear and sensible, you give way to traffic from the right. Anything else would be confusing and cause more conflict. Provided everyone approaches the roundabout at low speed and it really can work very well.

Mike

12/2/2022 03:53:30

Rob said: "There is no way you should be stationary on a roundabout in the first place"

Some r/a have traffic lights on them. You have to stop for red lights and stationary traffic ahead of you !

Fred West

3/8/2021 17:42:17

The driver believes that the car on the right has the right of way on a mini round about, well it is time to make the law clear, due to stupidity of others. Say there were 4 cars all at their stop points on the mini round about, we will call these 4 cars, A, B, C, & D.

A says to D, but, you have priority as you are to right,
but D says to C, but, you have priority as you are to right,
C says to B, but, you have priority as you are to right,
B says to A, but, you have priority as you are to right

According to car on right goes first, that is a non starter.
No one would ever move, IT GOES DOWN TO FIRST PAST THE LINE, from a stopped car. A speeding car that did not stop could not take control. At the end of the day, HMG, should make the legal situation clear, & video, & HWC diagrams.

The law is, the car first over the stop, take priority, as they are already classed as over the line, & on the mini round about.

Despite this you get some idiots, driving up to the mini round about, screaming out of the way, expecting as they are to your right, they have right of way, " yet they are not even at the round about ". This is simply dangerous & unreasonable driving,

So the law is basically 1st in, takes control, with a cars wheels on the mini roundabout. they take legal control.

The Law would see it, If a car pushes past that stop for them to hit you in the side. simply, they could not hit you in the side, unless you were already on the round about, & or they were not driving with due care & attention.

If all else fails, or if you get an idiot, you should scream at them,
that YOU HAVE PRIORITY, because your car is a FORD CAR
( or appropriate to your car ) as such it has priority.

It normally stuns the other driver, to shock, & you just drive off.

The same reverse logic works, when two cars go head to head, into a one lane left for driving through, I was 75% through, when a taxi refused to stop, & blocked the end bit off, & expected me to reverse, I stopped my car, locked the doors, & put by seat back to snooze, I COULD AFFORD TO WAIT, he could not, as it was costing him money, he reversed, so set off again & thanked him. You don't need to gloat or look at him, or again tell him, your is a Ford, you had right of way in any event.

In all cases GET A DASH CAM.
,

Trisha

3/8/2021 17:49:33

Agree with you. I went off and bought a good quality Dash Cam straight away because the nonsense I heard from the other driver was ludicrous! I will have all the evidence I need if this situation should occur again!

Michael B Walsh

19/10/2021 20:03:47

A co worker of mine ( LGV1) driver in his car was hit TWICE at different times by drivers slamming into him from the right whilst he was on a mini roundabout . Both drivers of those drivers where held responsible and prosecuted.

Gary link

5/8/2021 07:05:33

Wrong and this is the naive understanding that causes accidents. Essentially by allowing the car approaching the roundabout when your already at the giveaway line is treating it like a t junction. The idea of a mini roundabout is to give equal opportunity for every driver at every line of approach to keep traffic moving. Simple!

11/2/2022 14:22:16

Wrong. The situation is quite clear, the roundabout is a road in it's own right and each entrance onto the roundabout is de-facto a 'T' junction in it's own right with priority to the road that is the roundabout. It is this fact that, in some cases but not all, makes the roundabout 'fairer' for all approaching lanes. A mini roundabout is no different to any other roundabout.

Steve

10/10/2021 12:06:36

You should give way to the right, but once you are on the roundabout you have the priority over cars who have not yet entered the roundabout from your right. Of course, you may choose to give away your priority in what you may perceive as the interests of safety, if for example someone is approaching the roundabout too fast or you don't wish to take the risk that they don't understand who has priority. But once you've crossed the line and a car arriving from the right has not, you do have priority. Of course we can argue about whether this is the best solution and perhaps a change in or clarification of the rules should take place.

Robert

18/5/2022 23:22:09

Nonsense. You are implying that a car 25 metres from the roundabout - maybe doing 60mph (in a 30) - should be given priority over a car already entering.
That way madness lies.

Tom Weston

27/9/2020 10:21:03

I came across this discussion with great interest because (a) it is a situation that I feel is really quite dangeruos and (b) the argument to always give priorty to the right is not logically coherent.

For example what happens at a mini roundabout with 4 roads joining arranged as the points of compass (N, S, E, W).
Suppose there is a stationary car at each road.
Who has priority? By symmetry each car is in the same position - its view of the roundabout is the same, with a car to the right.

I find, behaviourally, there is often a conflict between new mini roundabout layouts and the former, road junction layouts with well established priorities.

Thanks for any feedback.I find this genuinely perplexing.

Terry Steel

18/12/2020 11:01:45

If two cars arrive head on at a four road mini roundabout at the same time and both want to turn right it seem like whoever is going fastest gets priority as he will be approaching the other cars right hand side first. This puts the slower safer driver in a dangerous position he has to brake and stop quickly or hope the faster driver does the same. Who's to blame?

18/12/2020 11:13:20

It seems entirely ambiguous as to who is at fault. This is exacerbated by the fact some of the mini-roundabouts are so small (barely a few metres) that for two cars even going from a standstill, the timing gets close to a typical driver's reaction time.

18/12/2020 11:57:22

"This puts the slower safer driver in a dangerous position he has to brake and stop quickly"

Utter nonsense as he was braking to stop at the give way line in any case as all drivers - even the faster ones should be doing.

G.Frith

19/6/2021 20:54:53

Why should any vehicle have to stop in an unsafe manner ? They both have Give Way lines and should be already preparing to stop at this point in the road.

13/10/2020 21:02:26

The give way lines are for the roundabout & no other (approach) road.
The Mexican standoff occurs because drivers fail to understand this.
There is not one rule for big roundabouts and another for mini roundabout.

Sue

2/11/2020 16:42:26

There is a mini roundabout near me which sometimes has a seemingly constant supply of vehicles approaching it from one particular road. If I am waiting at the next turning, I can end up waiting for 5, 6, 7 or even more cars to speed onto the roundabout and off again in front of me (no bothersome stoppage to Their traffic flow doncha know) and only be able to proceed myself if and when there is a gap, I got hooted and gestured at tonight. I only wish I could send the vickers gesture from my back window. The roundabout is tiny and my front wheels were definitely on the roundabout - beyond the give way lines - before theirs. I moved off at a snail's pace but was still in front of them when they made it past 'the dot' (family pet name for mini roundabouts.) I agree with the post earlier that for safety it is best to let them go but the lack of clarity (the rules essentially say give way to the the right the same way for normal and mini roundabouts) is obviously leading to some problems and sometimes trouble which I think is unfair to those who have got the rules right but also really to those who have got the rules wrong but don't know it. We all deserve clarity.

2/11/2020 17:40:30

Sue,

If those 7 vehicles form one stream, it is better to let them all through. However, if there's a gap, feel free to use it.

Many bad drivers resort to using the horn. It is one part of a car they seem to have mastered and therefore make too frequent use.

Last time I tried using the horn to attract the attention of a ped I know, I failed. I was just not prepared for the amount of 'shove' necessary to get the horn to sound. I was used to a push on the end of the indicator stalk which only needed a light tap.

BikerOnAMission

16/1/2021 19:12:18

Driver courtesy is the missing essential ingredient to the Mexican Stand-off. With that, there would be no significant accidents, since all would approach said mini-roundabouts with intentional kindness to give the other punter a chance of living. Instead, it's more like "Shoot out at the OK Corral". Sadly, they don't (but should) teach sufficient courtesy during driving courses, and it is probably not fashionable to say it. -Hence we all pay more insurance.
Progress.

Ricky

4/11/2020 17:50:55

On the mini roundabout near me one junction at the roundabout has a double dashed line whereas the others have a single dashed line. I can only guess what that really signifies. A pity though that one approach doesn't have a continuous (uncashed) line signifying a 'stop' or 'yield' which would be sensible as the whole approach to the roundabout is blind and nobody can see vehicles approaching and not stopping.

1/12/2020 14:32:20

What the different dashed lines signify is that the council have not adhered to the legislation regarding road markings!

Therefore, the roundabout is incorrectly marked and if a collision were to occur there, then apportioning blame would be difficult.

18/12/2020 11:23:33

Really to answer my own point I found some diagrams on the government's highway code website dealing with roundabout give way signs. There are 3 - all dashed variety - (a) single dashed line, (b) double dashed line and (c) very large double dashed line (like slabs). Of course they all signify give way to vehicles approaching from the right but the large slab like double dashed lines signify give way to traffic on the 'major' road. All well and good but the nutters where I live have seemingly changed the priorities by placing option (c) on the 'major' road and giving the minor one priority. So everybody ignores them, drivers pull out into oncoming traffic and there is lots of honking. A simple solid line on one of the approaches would do the job.

18/12/2020 12:03:53

The 'major road' is the circular one on the roundabout - all approaches are minor roads to that one. The 'give way' markings mean give way to traffic on the major road (which approaches from the right - hence that statement in The Highway Code).

This is what roundabouts are all about and if people understood this, (not even some driving instructors do!) everything would work fine. It's not helped by poor wording in The Highway Code.

Matt

12/11/2020 10:08:26

I am at a mini roundabout and about to turn right , but as i notice there is a further 2 cars (1 car on my right signaling right )& other car in front of me also signaling Right !! We all are BEHIND THE GIVE WAY LINES & Approched at the same time ,so nobody is committed yet . Who gives way to who ? As we all know we have to ALL give way to eachother if signaling right !? Not only that but we cant “Flash them “ ! So what ?!

Mike Paley

13/11/2020 01:33:56

You only give way to vehicles on the roundabout. It seems none of the drivers present understand this - hence the Mexican standoff.

It never happens with me as I just carry on !

Dawn

6/3/2021 10:23:06

Mini roundabout just now and a truck almost went into the side of me. I approached to turn right thinking I was there first. He was going faster and didn’t even Slow down, I presume thinking I would stop. I had already pulled out but he did not wait, anticipate what almost happened. I think the factors here we’re not only who’s right of way was it really, but speed and arrogance! It was a near miss.

MR JOHN CLARK

18/3/2021 02:54:54

This really needs an amendment to the highway code. It only states that mini roundabouts are to be treated in the same way as large roundabouts and to give way to the right. This clearly means traffic that is on the right ans in ON the roundabout, so from the wording, it must mean traffic on the right and ON the mini roundabout. However all the driving instruction videos (and I presume driving instructors) teach giving way to traffic on the right that is not yet on the mini roundabout. This even applies to a very long stream of traffic from the right, which is clearly nonsensical. It would also apply to a car arriving from the right at speed, with no intention of stopping, which is dangerous.

Mike W

17/5/2021 01:59:40

I agree with this and the OP.

My local mini R had a smash this week. There's way too many cars that fly over it without any intention of slowing. Joining from the two quieter directions has to be done with extreme caution.

Really, anyone approaching has to be prepared and able to stop. Priority given to cars already on the roundabout.

17/5/2021 02:01:05

Harry Davidson

7/5/2021 14:05:28

I was told by a traffic police officer years ago that the interpretation in the original post is correct, and that when called out they normally assigned blame the opposite way to that expected by the aggrieved driver who called them out.

Personally I would make a limit of 5mph on all mini-roundabouts. Then drivers would be able to stop for pedestrians as well.

7/5/2021 15:35:44

Harry, I understand your comment like "interpretation in the original post" but it adds vaguety - so always worth adding confirming words like in this case you only give way to traffic on the roundabout.

Police, sadly, interpret the law as they want to see it and not necessarily as it actually is.

Many years ago, a cop was walking past a traffic light crossroads at the same time as me. A car had fully crossed the stop line on red - and I commented to the cop about this and they replied "As long as they stopped".
Thing is, the car was then blocking the junction for an HGV wanting to turn left into that road - as they'd need both sides of the road to do it.

Not many people understand traffic lights either ! (including bus drivers and Ashley Neal, driving instructor.)

Mel

11/5/2021 01:34:30

I agree with the OP. I find a few things wrong with the way people approach Mini Rs,

The issue I have is, related to the indicator thing, I have a number of three road Mini Rs near me, with 2 of the approaches basically opposit each other, making the vehicles technically on each others right.

So we have the situation where a lot of folks think cos they are indicating, this is what gives them the right of way even if they are further away from the Mini R than the other vehicle(s), again my argument would be indicitating does not set precendence but whoever hits the Mini R first has precedence, irrelevant of who is indicating or not.

I find a lot of folks do not grasp this and will swear blind if the car is indicating right they have right of way and you should stop and wait for them to finish their approach and enter the Mini R before moving on yourself even if you are able to enter the Mini R before they do, which is nonsense.

My argument to that is, so who has right of way if we are both indicating right, as technically I am on their right, they are on my right, and we are both indicating right?

Of course the answer is, who ever gets there first...So surely this is how it should be in all situations, who ever gets there first has the right of way.

17/5/2021 02:01:33

17/5/2021 02:01:48

MR MALCOLM EVANS

28/12/2021 07:24:20

Smashes occur for many reasons on all junctions if only all obeyed the spirit of the rules, When approaching a mini roundabout you look to your right and if you see a vehicle approaching at a speed above or below the posted limit and the conditions are there is nothing he can see approaching from his right then what exactly have they done wrong in crossing in front of you. You did what was required, you gave way. If they are speeding l would still suggest you give way, only faster. There is not much else you can do speeding causes accidents everywhere.

Trisha M

27/5/2021 17:45:29

At a mini roundabout. Driver approaching from the right , but nowhere near it yet. I move forward & have got my front wheels on, when without the slightest attempt to slow down, enters the roundabout but flies at the same speed straight over the top of it in a straight line.
He reckoned he had not done anything wrong & could not understand my annoyance!!

Hypersonic

21/6/2021 07:17:28

Although I agree with the OP nobody has raised "What is the purpose of the mini roundabout".
In short to 1. Slow traffic to a point where drivers are able to STOP without colliding 2. Change the priorities of the former junction to low traffic density side road traffic joining a high density road
Only one response mentions COURTESY which these days is in short supply, a biker who recognises that they are more vulnerable in a collision
IMHO the problem is exacerbated by inconsistent Mini Roundabout road markings. Mini roundabouts do not use a consistent method of conveying GIVE WAY and the presence of a pole mounted "Give Way" also appears to be optional. Furthermore incoming speed limits are not always 30mph.
The fact that a large section of the driving public haven't reasoned this out annoys me intensely so there is currently only one way to proceed namely DEFENSIVELY if you wish to maintain your accident free record (should you have one!)

Jimmy

4/8/2021 23:30:29

You are so wrong. It's crazy how many people don't understand how roundabouts work in the UK, Robin being one of them

Duncan

8/8/2021 17:38:48

I agree with the OP that the rules need to be clarified for mini roundabouts. Their use seems to have grown since the original drafting when they were little more than an occasional oddity. Now they are used regularly by councils probably because they are relatively cheap when compared with, for instance, traffic lights that would be much more definitive.

My own interpretation is that mini roundabouts are in effect the equivalent of the US four way stop ie access to the mini roundabout is effectively first come first served.

Doesn't Rule 187 require you to take care of vehicles passing in front of you as you make to enter the roundabout? Wouldn't this mean that any vehicle approaching from the right, but not yet on the roundabout, must slow down and allow a vehicle that has entered the mini roundabout from the left ahead of it to complete its turn before charging onto the roundabout in a rage.

Mike link

8/8/2021 18:14:38

"Wouldn't this mean that any vehicle approaching from the right, but not yet on the roundabout, must slow down and allow a vehicle that has entered the mini roundabout from the left ahead of it to complete its turn before charging onto the roundabout in a rage. "

YES !

Robert Howse

25/8/2021 16:28:49

The main issue for me on mini roundabouts is the assumption by many drivers turning right, across on coming traffic, that they are entitled to cut across the centre, sometimes not even getting that far before turning. It's a roundabout and we should all go around it unless our vehicles are to long. That is in the guidlines.

25/8/2021 19:28:39

"The main issue for me on mini roundabouts is the assumption by many drivers turning right, across on coming traffic"

Well, as they're on the roundabout, you should give way to them. They aren't cutting you up, you're getting in their right of way.

28/12/2021 07:05:05

So many points made that do not include the whole point of any controlled junction. It relies on all drivers to consider the safety of all others as the prime goal. To be aware of all traffic around you, right left ahead behind etc and make safe decisions based on you driving skill level. Vehicle type, speed distance etc. The point of give way lines is to warn drivers that they should give way if required by evaluating all of the above, It does NOT mean, if you cross your line first you will automatically have right of way! You need to know you do not have any "right of way" you only have the opportunity to grant it to others by giving way. All these conflict situations are resolved if all are prepared to give way rather than drive to a situation where a right of way can be claimed. The first across the line has the priority proposal is incredibly dangerous. It requires you to look left at that junctions give way line, the position of that vehicles front wheels at that junction (?) AND at the same time look right for traffic crossing your path. I believe looking at
DESIGN MANUAL FOR ROADS AND BRIDGES TD 54/07
Chapter 6
Geometric Design Features Section 2 Part 2, where the design of specifically mini roundabouts includes the following
“Visibility" 6.16
I think this definitely points to looking right further than the roundabout itself.is key.

28/12/2021 17:59:30

You only 'think'.

I KNOW you're wrong.

1. The design of the feature does not dictate the 'rules'.
2. The Give Way markings relate to a source of traffic being required to yield to traffic already on the roundabout. - So, if you're first on the roundabout, other traffic about to join the roundabout should give way to you - whether you got onto the roundabout an arm to the left or an arm to the right.
The usual conflict is where you got on an arm to their left - they look right - it's clear so have no one to yield to...they get on the roundabout to find you are in front of them - they can't expect to bully their way past you no more than they can in the same situation on a straight road that they've just joined.

Victor

13/1/2022 17:05:02

I believe this makes things even worse because many people think the same way and are actually racing each other to the roundabout in order to ensure they are the first crossing the lines. All it will do is lead to more collisions than there are now.

Kat

7/3/2022 23:00:42

Quite a few drivers seem to now practice the methodology that if they don't actually look to the right as they steam across the mini roundabout, you are not actually there. Rather infuriating. X

Jimeno

14/5/2022 17:52:54

I don't know where this notion has come from - that if you have crossed the give way line and are on the roundabout you have priority.

The Code is quite straightforward - you give priority to traffic approaching from the right.

This obviously does not excuse priority traffic entering the roundabout recklessly or straight-lining the white circle.

16/5/2022 14:48:30

"I don't know where this notion has come from - that if you have crossed the give way line and are on the roundabout you have priority."

IT IS THE PRIMARY BASIC CONCEPT OF ROUNDABOUTS ! It is the same concept that drivers have right of way on a main road over side roads. The white paint on the end of the side road (and roundabout access roads) confirms this.

16/5/2022 16:19:57

Mike - you need to back up your assertions with some evidence.

The Highway Code (185) does not say that.

It says "Always give priority to the traffic coming from the right, unless you have been directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights"

https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/changes-and-answers/-highway-code-for-roundabouts#:~:text=Section%20185&text=Always%20give%20priority%20to%20the,before%20joining%20just%20in%20case)

If you can show something different from this then fine - show it.

You can't just say something and expect people to simply accept it when the evidence says otherwise.

16/5/2022 16:53:30

"It says "Always give priority to the traffic coming from the right, unless you have been directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights""

That's for people joining the roundabout (or main road, if the main road was a one-way street - as roundabouts are)

People on the roundabout/main road only have to 'give way' to the road users in front of them on the same road.

This is really common sense. If you're not on the roundabout and are about to join it, you give way to the traffic on it. Hence the traffic on the roundabout has priority.

16/5/2022 20:18:33

Need evidence of this - not just you saying it.

Many people get confused about the traffic priorities at mini roundabouts

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